Pathfinder 2.0 is currently in beta
They are in the process of doing to damage casters what most larps have done to damage caster
your playing a caster that cute
In Pathfinder 2.0 if you have a great axe +2 around level 8 you are doing 3d12 +4 or 5 damage depending on your strength bonus,
As a caster if you cast fire ball at level 8 in 1.0 it did 8d6, in 2.0 it does 6d6 unless you heighten it. They give you weapon storm at level 4 but unless you can wield a nice weapon which is either painful as a wizard or requires following an evil god your max damage is 4d8 for an area of effect.
In 1.0 you were allowed to put holes in your spells not to hit party members that is gone in 2.0
Now you get roughly a max of 4 spells per level for your class. Which is 2 to 3 spells per level than you used to get, so in addition to having the amount of spells you used to be able to cast get cut in half the damage really isnt that impressive.
In 1.0 magic missile grew and you didnt have to do shit it started at 1d4+1 and finished at level 9 at 5d4+5 it wasnt bad for a first level spell, a first level magic missile in 2.0 maxes out at 3d4+3 unless you want to use a higher level spell slot, but really your giving up a spell that should do more damage at a higher level than this shit.
Magic missile I think goes up by 1 missile a spell slot but requires a higher level spell
at 7th level I think it tops out at 12d4+12 for an average damage of 42, now if your fighter has a great axe +2 hes doing 3d12+4 to 5 without a magic and if power attacks that 4d12+5 from 1 attack, and he can still take a 3rd action and you cant, granted its only 31 damage but he can do that every round.
There are some spells that scale nicely with their new system like monster summoning and heal, but I think their damage spells are 100% pure crap.
Something like invise should be as expected.
but a friend of mine cast web the creature failed his saving throw and all it was -10 to movement bfd.
A spell that used to be really nice was stoneskin now its 5 points of DR for piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage if someone is swinging 3d12+5 you really going to notice that 5dr?
Some cantrips like detect magic are comically bad at level 1, at level 1 you know you are within a 30ft radius of a magic thats it. you dont even know direction.
Gone are the really nice stat buff series, gone are the days when water walking last a long time now its a flat 10 minutes.
they gave you some feats at the low levels, things like widen spell yippie and no way to not hit party members.
most of the shit they did helped clerics some
They did get rid of Arcane Spell failure
So if you wanted to do a Shadow Knight type caster it would probably be pretty strong.
But straight casters to me seem laughable weak. It would be like running around a larp, I might have enough useful spells for a boss fight, but after that I just have to swing at shit
I am thinking about making a fighter wizard based around vampric touch but the problem with it, my weapon does 2d8+ 3 and my spell does 3d6 with a healing effect, i need to take a few hits without dying
Dont you worry the best healers in the game know in my opinion are Sorcerers with Divine casting and cleric feats, so there are more options than straight clerics, but damage dealing casters got hit with the nerf hammer pretty hard
this review is not complete and the game is in beta
well at least they accepted spell casting sucks they gave wizards feats like magical striker after you cast a spell your weapon either gets +1 magic enhancement or its magical enhancement get stronger
One of the funnier things for me, is now they want you to cast low level spells in higher level slots for a greater effect.
mage armor when you get it is +1 AC lasts all day fine not terrible its about what padded armor is in the 2.0 but as a 20th level caster you can cheese upto 3 10th level spells and one of them could be mage armor and you get a +6 bonus, really one of the few 10th level spells I get could be as good as a non magical full plate, something I could just wear with 3 armor feats or buying the fighter dedication feat. not impressed.
You can say Haste is still a great spell, haste used to have more targets, as a 7th level spell its 5 targets, but as a 3rd level spell its target creature, the target gets 1 action to either strike make an attack or to move thats it, and if that attack makes your multiple attack penalty go down i wouldnt use it for free. now if the quick condition gives the melee player an additional attack at its highest modifier its a great melee buff but still not a damage spell, the quick condition has nothing about it being a bonus attack at your highest modifier so it might be a movement speed spell in some situations whoopie
I think Paizo would have to nerf magic weapons to make spell casting remotely worth it.
My DM pointed out Burning hands casts as a 9th level spell can do 18 d6, keep in mind that player would have decided to cast burning hands over meteor swarm which is also a 9th level spell, now if the make there save its knocked down to 9d6 provided they dont have evasion and it misses them completely so dont tell me u cant miss with spells, now if I counted it right a barbarian with a great axe crits at level 18 his damage should be around 13d12 + 24 no saving throw, so why would I want to play a caster again? that gets knocked down to 6d12+12 on a non crit, 6d12 alone should be more damage than 9d6
Well in 2.0 they are adding an extra die for each + on the weapon, and barbarians get an ability of an extra die on a crit, and a crit doubles your die pool so the normal swing of 6d12+12 that +12 is strength + rage so 6d12 +12 becomes 13d12 +24 when counting the barb damage die on crits
blur just rocks but i think its more of a melee enhancement
u do realize 1d8 + my ability modifer is a little more than half my damage with a melee swing of 2d8 + strength right?
according to the multiple attack penalty the person with haste does indeed get an extra strike at a -10 penalty
Excuse me how is it not a meleers game?
Lets say your a 20th wizard and you cast your 10th level spell mage armor and you get a +6 bonus to AC lets say you have an 18 dex, giving you a total of a 30 AC
Lets say your a 20th Barbarian you swing a great axe now say you didnt go all in, in strength and only goto it up a 22 for a +6 bonus, your rage is +6 damage, now lets say you have a legendary great axe with a +5 potency rune, I think you can also have 2 other runes in that weapon but for now we will skip that
Now the barb attack bonus is well weapon fury makes you an expert so thats +1, legendary weapon is +3, the +5 potency rune is +5, and +6 to hit because of your strength and +20 for your level. so by my math that is a +15 to hit
So you are only missing the 20th level Wizard on a 1, and you are critting the wizard on a roll of a 4 + you have a 64% chance to crit on 2 swings, as a barb that translates to 26d12 +48 that is 1 dead wizard. Now if you rolled average damage that is 6.5 times 26 +48 well 6 times 26 = 156 +48 = 204 damage that is slightly under average, so unless that wizard has a +3 con he is dead. and at a +3 con he is still dead if you rolled slightly over average.
so how it is not a meleers game in its current state?
there is not 1 spell you have that can even compete with 26d12+48. my bad barbs also do bleeding damage on crits too
well they might have addressed some of my problems with http://paizo.com/download/PZO2102%20001-029-1.pdf
well it seems to more of a wild magic theme in 2.0, saving throws seem harder for people to make your spell dc is basically, your spell casting ability which is cancelled by their base saving throw, then its 10 + your ability modifier v. there saving throw ability modifier so its sounds like 50/50 you hit for 1/2 damage
You dont get expert spell casting until level 12. You do eventually get legendary spell casting at 19 when its almost over
for the next part I have to create a 7th level character, Since my ability to cast spells is even or -1 to their saving throw, that is a wash. Now its 10 + int, v. 1d20+ there appropriate save so I should be somewhere betweem 8 – 14 better than them without rolling Considering a critical success means my spell did ZERO never mind playing with such things as magic resistance, and resistance to a certain type.
Look in 1.0, dealing with magic resistance or spell resistance and resists where in the game I would expect it to be in this game, but you have to know your odds of going against things with crit success where your spells would do ZERO. Your enemy is creatures with dex when throwing damage. Because there dex mod might be higher than your intelligence mod and your spell would have a 50% or greater of doing ZERO if the have evasion. without evasion its like 90% they save not terrible. A success is still 1/2 generally when throwing damage so its your target number +10 is what they need. Like say they have expert in the save your going against its going to be 9 + 4 int, v. a d20 + there mod. worst case is dex, a +6 dex is a max roll of 26. the would critically success on an 17 or higher. 20%. it does nothing, without magic immunity. Now if they are dex free no bonus your looking pretty good, you have a +13 so on a 3 or less they critical fail.
The only thing spell pennetration does is against condition saving throws which is probably some type of resist. If it was a flat + 1 to the DC it would be alot better.
Yes my familiar can give me an extra spell it can die on me to. Any AOE attack and its probably one dead familiar if I was using the familiar for anything combat related. At level 7 my familiar has 28 hit points. if you want to know how underwhelming that is my dwarf wizard would be starting with 66 hit points. And I get 6 hit points + con per level.
with the number crunchers in my group alot of pharsma clerics
The gave selective energy to clerics, and they did not give wizard the ability to leave out party members making AOEs even more useless
Haste is 1 target gets 1 action until you hit level 13. You used to be able to hit multiple part members with it now that action can only before strike or move. so its i could be an additional strike with a -10 penalty yippie. It says nothing about not being effected by multiple attack penalty, so maybe if they needed 3 move actions to get there they would get 1 swing at their full base attack. but that would be it, run 75 ft to 90 ft on average and swing once,
At a minimum before you got a full attack at your highest bab and an AC bonus and Reflex save bonus and you were able to target 1 creature a level so at level 5 when you got the spell you could target 5 people, you cannot target 5 people now until level 13. So not only is the AC and reflex bonus gone, but the attack bonus of using your highest bab
how does that not just suck? At level 13 I can do what a level 3 spell used to do. If I use a 7th level spell slot for it and its effected where nerfed
Now druids get a real spell point ability in tempest surge 4d10 at level 7 for 1 fucking spell point where force bolt is 4d4 + int force bolt is ranged touch no save i think where tempest the creature has a saving throw so it might be balanced
damn the made healing spells alot stronger
Look Clerics come in 2 varieties in D and D games generally, 1 so under powered they are not worth playing and mini gods
In pathfinder 2.0 for the Cleric ability they decided it would be fun to give the cleric 6 Max heal spells for free. I said maybe I could use my Arcane focus 4 times using my spells points and get 4 free 4th level spells not 6 like the Cleric and my D and D Group laughed.
Currently pathfinder 2.0 with 6 Free max level spells for clerics channneling ability they are on the minigod side.
I did A Divine Sorcerer my max healing is I have 4 1d8+3, I have 4 3d8+3, I have 4 5d8 +3, and I have 3 7d8+3 Now that level of healing didnt exist in 1.0, and in 2.0 you say I am a laughable 7th level healing class.
look if you look at cleric healing at level 1, they get 8 spells that can heal 2d8+8, because clerics can follow healing domain for +2 per die and with an 18 wis that is +8, and they can get healing hands which is a d8. At level 1 if your not Cleric the best you can do is 3 spells for 1d8 +4. Now that difference only gets more and more ridiculous they higher level you get.
The only advantage I have as sorcerer that I am curious about is If I use my Great Axe as my holy symbol as a Sorcerer I can use my Great Axe for Somantic “waving my hands around” and “material” costs for spells. and the only other spell action is vocal
so I dont have to drop my weapon or shield to cast a heal spell, because I am arcane after casting a heal spell my weapon does an extra die for damage which is all +1 to hit. so if I say I cast bless my next sword swing goes from 2d12+3 to 3d12+3, and since its my first attack there is no penalty. I only get the buff for my next swing. But if that crits its an extra d12 for damage as well, so it could be 6d12+3 at level 7 not to shabby, fighters should be jealous at my level
I sure do if I can do a possible 6d12+3 with a melee swing, and my best spell at level 7 does improved fireball for 8d6 why cast Arcane spells
My base attack with a melee swing after casting a spell looks like +7 for my level +3 strength, + 3 to hit from my weapon, for a total of +13. So on an attack roll I can go from 14-33
Now for casting a spell it looks like 7 for my spell casting skill, + 3 maybe +4 if I thought about doing damage, +10 is their saving throw target number so thats either 20-21, happy has 11 for reflex and 12 for will as a sorcerer, so if I didnt roll a 1 I wouldnt critical fall a save, and if I rolled a 20 it would do no damage, but im not even a max dex character. if someone say has a 20 dex at my level which is possible and they have expert reflexes which is possible, they take no damage on a 17 or higher which is 20% of the time.
Now I know at a +13 I will at least be able to crit the yard trash. And ill be able to crit low AC targets, if someone has my AC my chances of hitting are decent. criting only on 20, but I think I can crit yard trash. or a caster in a robe that didnt value dex or armor to much, now a caster at level 7 with just an ac 20, I would crit on a 17 or higher. Where some probably maxed their strength and he crits on a 15 or higher
but 3d12+3 is probably better damage on average than 2nd level spells and lower. might even be on par with 3rd level spells and I can do that all day
fighters get weapon mastry at level 3 which is +2 to hit compared to a caster, they get master in perception and +1 in initative which is 3 greater than a caster for initative, once a day at level 9 they can take any 8th level and lower feat they dont have, you become legendary at a weapon at 13 which is another +1 to hit, at level 17 you get master in armor which is +2 to ac, a fighter a level 6 can fire 3 arrows a round, then another 3 at a minus 4 penalty then a last volley of 3 arrows at a -8 penalty total. that is 9 arrows. now if they have a composite short bow geared for say a 16 str, at +1 that is potentially 18d6+48 for damage which by the way is a fuck ton more than your fucking wizard and that does not take into account critical hits. 18d6+48 at level 6. Fuck you and fighter suck argument very much. btw a fighter might have a 20 str at level 6. so the 16 composite is not maxed out.
so being a master in your weapon that is +2 to hit, another +2 to hit because its a magic weapon now if you want archer you probably have an 18 dex for another +4 to hit.
so your first three attacks are at + 14, your next 3 attacks are at +10, and your last 3 attacks are at +6.
so this argument fighters do dick for damage you can suck it.
the only way a wizard is hitting 9 targets is if they are so densely packed together the gm made an error. now at level 8 you get the incredible aim feat and your 3 attacks now look like +18/+14/+10, unless you have a +2 weapon by then which you should then its +20/+16/+12. now with a +2 weapon each arrow does 3d6+4 probably per arrow. With 9 arrows that could be 27d6+104 if they all hit. A wizard does not do that much damage with a 9th level spell
at level 16 there is a feat called multishot paragon your attack penalty between attacks drops to -1. So your first 3 are at X, your next 3 are X-1, and your last 3 are X-2.
At level 19 any time you roll a 19,20 is a critical success.
and at level 20 you get an extra attack
Im sorry but even fighters greatly outdamage wizards or arcane.;
now lets say for fun at level 20 you had a legendary composite bow with a +5 str modifier. with a +5 potence rune.
Along the way you took things like incredible aim and triple shot,
Your level 20 + legendary weapon +3, +5 proficenty rune +2 incredible aim
your first volley of 3 arrows is at +40/your next volley is at +39/ and your last volley is at +38, all other classes I believe max out at +38 to hit and your doing that with your 3rd attack
So you get 9 arrows how bad could that be, well its 6d6+5 per arrow.
that comes out to 54d6+ 135, that does not count crits or runes that are not potency, so fuck you very much about Fighters not doing damage.
now at a +38, you remember your favorite mage in his 10th level mage armor with his +4 dex bonus and his total ac of 30, you crit that asshole on a 3 or higher with all your attacks, and you only miss on ones.
now if you want to get silly sa you multclass into rogue, you would get an additional 9d6 in sneak attack damage.
but that is more silly if a rogue does it with his 5d6 sneak attack damage. per arrow.
so your telling me it should be 54d6 + 9d6 sneak attak +45 it makes sense right +5 per arrow so I did add it wrong, but that above 63d6+45 with a minimum damage of 108 means you didnt crit that often if you crit three times as ofen as you miss, it goes upto 117d6+35 and that saying you missed on 2 shots
right i didnt do arrow damage correctly its still a fuck ton more than a wizard
well because your a fighter/rogue at level 20 its 7d6+5 per arrow, lets say you dont roll a 1 and crit all 3 times the first round, that comes out to 39d6+30 for action 1, maybe something like 27d6+20 you missed once, and 20d6+15 on your third action you missed once and did not crit.
keep in mind that is missing only on a 1, and critting on a 3 or higher on all attacks so you would probably do better but you rolled really bad. that is still 86d6+65 which I believe is more damage than a wizard could do. but lets get funny and say you had shocking on your bow too, that is around 22d6 in electric damage so your still at 108d6+65, and you rolled two ones and a 2 in your 9 rolls
Wizard spells just plain suck.
honey I have a 16 Cha with my current character I can use 10 magical items a day total. Now I have to use 1 RP point to wear my armor, I have to use 1 RP to hold my staff, and I think I have to use 1 RP to wear my goggles, I am down to 7 RP.
Now I also have to use RP to open my bag of holding, and I have to use RP if I want to use my staff, or drink a healing potion. If I used my RP for nothing but drinking potions I can drink 7 potions a day. I might be able to drink more but it requires some type of check which I might fail. and my thurbile of revelation 4 of my RP is just gone equiping magical items, with a 16 CHA I can activate magic items 6 times, that includes drinking healing potions, I am thinking of lower my cha to 14.
because honestly the damage spells are extremely weak
now neutralize poison might get rid of the poison on a roll, but restoration automatically drops the poison level by 1 stage so should I even risk the roll? And if I cast it as a 4th level spell it drops the poison level by 2 stages no roll required.
I have very few spells that give a shit about spell DC. now searing light at level 3 does 4d6 and 4d6 if it takes damage v good, and vampiric touch is 3d6.
i have the reach spell feat and cantrips.
for fun Ill be making a fighter or rogue archer for a back up character, my 59 hit points I think is going to go quick
rogues do less damage with bows but can do some interesting stuff with their arrows
a fighter with 1 cleric feat so i could use a wand of healing
my bad i overlooked point blank shot on fighers +2 damage per arrow. so the above might have had +1
look in Pathfinder 2.0 you can only wear and use X amount of magic items. the base is level + Cha mod without making a role.
It is not 1.0 where you can just use a wand of healing to heal the party after combat if your out of healing.
I have a cha of 16 right now and I am level 7 I can use 10 magic item, I have 4 magic items that require an investment which means I can activiate or use 6 other items, I have a staff of healing that I can use 1 charge for a level 3 heal I think or 3 level 1 charges, if I do it as 3 level 1 charges I am down to 3. If I use my bag of holding to put stuff in Im down to 2.
On top of their damage spells getting nerfed to all hell spells like MM and Fireball not doing with that used to, Haste which you got at 5th level and it was a 3rd level spell, no longer grants an attach at your highest bonus, and AC bonus, dex bonus, and reflex save bonus + double your movement, and 1 target per level so you could target 5 people a level 5, now it is just 1 action 1 target until level 13. and at level 13 you can target 5 people with one extra action, and the attack bonus from it is at the lowest level attack possible. So if you got 3 attacks normally at X, X-5, X-10 the haste attack action would be at X-10 also, it used to be X, a haste attack for X, then X-5 and X-10. To boot the critical success means your damage spells will have no effect, and spell casting is a 50-50 raffle. its your spell casting level, which is canceled out by their saving throw level, its easier to get Expert in a saving throw before expert in spell casting, then its your ability modifier v. their ability modifier. so you have something like your level +10+ your ability, v, there level + saving throw modifier + their ability. so if you had a + 4 int and they had a +4 dex, the chances of your spell landing is about 45%, they only critical fail on a 1, and they get a critical success on 19-20., now if NPCs are higher level than you your chances go down by 5% a level. say if the DM decides 1 9th level creature can entertain a party its your spell Level 7 +10 + 4 or 5 for int. so at best your a 22, v. the monster level 9 + ability mod say its a 4 to 5, there base number might be 14, so they would only critical fail on a 1. and on a 18/19/20 they critical succeed. and they fail on a 7 or lower, and take normal damage 8-17. On top of damage getting nerfed, their buffs getting nerfed the critical success makes damage casters almost useless. And even if a wizard level 15 attacked a 10th level party the wizard would lose easily. Because his class cant out damage a 10th level characters healing.
My 7th level sorcerer does more damage with a great axe than he could do with his spells against 1 target even if he was an arcane caster. If I cast a heal or a bless spell before swinging, my base swing is 3d12+3 and I have a +14 to hit. 3d12+3 is better damage than a fireball against 1 target, which is 6d6, now a saving throw cuts that to 3d6, and a critical save = 0. if the fireball crits its 12d6, if my axe crits its 6d12+6. Now if I make my strength an 18, its 3d12+4 with a +15 to hit, I have not decided if i need 1 point of RP, and the other stuff.
Neutralize poison is a spell roll, restoration is -1 stage no roll required. And Im not the main healer there are 2 clerics in the party
spell casters do alot more damage v. trash mobs yes.
but if the mob is 5 levels higher than the party it has better stats and 5 levels
so its probably like your level 7 +5 int because you said you want your spells to land +10 you have a 22, v, a 12th level creature, it has 12 + 5 possible 6. say 17
now it has a 17 + a d20 v your 22. it saves on a 5 for 1/2 damage and critical saves on a 15 or better. and only critical fails on a 1.
but yes a 7th level wizard v a bunch of 2nd level characters it will cook them pretty fast provided they didnt have healing.
What i just read if I understood it correctly in my opinion makes damage casters unplayable
because its your skill level + ability mod +10 for your DC. At level 20 lets give you a +6. so 20+10+6 your DC is 36
I know what your thinking 36 sounds nice and high
but if people are running around with 18 dex if not naturally from items never mind dex monsters.
there roll is going to look something like 20 there level + 4 dex + 5 from armor + 1 for expert. and walla they are at a 30
now its your 36 v. 1d20+30 to see if your spell is successful
on a 1 they critical fail, on a 2-5 your successful. on a 6-15 they made their save and on a 16 or higher they critical saved with that your spell has a 25% chance of just not working, now if they are a dex monster they might go upto 40%, if they have evasion that goes 80%. Rangers and rogues both have evasion.
Now if the monster is a higher level than you your spells might not work 40% of the time, nevermind getting through things like spell resistance which has been in every d and game before this.
but a 25% your spell just doesnt work v. everybody, and a 75% chance they make their save.
Honey you need me to explain the numbers again?
Your level 20 would be cancelled by their level if they were the same level you get +10, they probably get +5 from their armor, your spell casting ability might be higher than their save ability then its your skill mod v. their skill mod.